Curse

ammad2006 · May 09, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

I have Livia runed up as my MM bomber hero currently, and I have been using [Jagged Bones] for a while as her elite. But, after a closer look, I realized the recharge is too long for it to be very effective. So I started looking at some other elites for NM or HM. Here are the ones I narrowed it down to.

[Blood is Power] This one is meh. I only used it in areas with heavy e-denial.

[animate flesh golem] Another meh one. I only used this if I need a tank to absorb most of the damage.

[discord] Pretty good, but better when I run it in discordway.

[Jagged bones] It's alright. I really didn't see the point in this except to to fuel bleeding for EVAS.

[Order of Undeath] I like this better on a human MM in NM. Couple it with Bone Fiend and EVSOH and you've got a killer combo.

[Tainted Flesh] Just horrible. The disease was not worth the time the hero spent casting and maintaining it on the whole party.

[reapers mark] This one was alright, but I like it better on a curses build.

[icy veins] This was one of my favorites. I used it with [putrid bile] to get huge damage on deaths.

[martyr] Highly useful when paired with [infuse conditions] in condition heavy areas. Other than that, there really is no point.

Which do you guys think is the best. BTW, I'm using a 40/20 +30 death staff if it matters alot.

Azure mist · May 09, 2009, 03:00 AM // 03:00

flesh or AoTL. Imo..

Lux Aeterna · May 09, 2009, 03:04 AM // 03:04

You forgot [aura of the lich].

I just capped [jagged bones] for sabway, but as you pointed out with the long recharge I might switch back to AotL, though in HM etc I can see the respawning minions being a huge advantage, especially when Livia has other things to be casting (death nova, splinter weapon).

Might really have to give [icy veins] a try though, or use discordway as [discord] is pretty nice except single target.

Currently she's non-sabway [aura of the lich].

Chthon · May 09, 2009, 06:33 AM // 06:33

(Just in case anyone missed it, this is about Minion Bomber heroes, not Minion Master player characters.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ammad2006

[Blood is Power] This one is meh. I only used it in areas with heavy e-denial.

Agreed. Terrible.

Quote:

[animate flesh golem] Another meh one. I only used this if I need a tank to absorb most of the damage.

Agreed. Mediocre.

Quote:

[discord] Pretty good, but better when I run it in discordway.

Discordway is effective, but mediocre (and anyone who thinks differently is confusing "low-effort" with "good"). Crap outside of discordway.

Quote:

[Jagged bones] It's alright. I really didn't see the point in this except to to fuel bleeding for EVAS.

It provides more minions, which means more death nova, and more disposable meat shields. It also allows you to not run BotM on the MB, which takes away part of the AI's ability to be stupid.

Quote:

[Order of Undeath] I like this better on a human MM in NM. Couple it with Bone Fiend and EVSOH and you've got a killer combo.

Agreed. A fantastic skill, but not something the hero AI can be trusted with.

Quote:

[Tainted Flesh] Just horrible. The disease was not worth the time the hero spent casting and maintaining it on the whole party.

Agreed. Just horrible.

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[reapers mark] This one was alright, but I like it better on a curses build.

Terrible. Single-target degen? And elite energy management... on a necro? This skill is awful.

Quote:

[icy veins] This was one of my favorites. I used it with [putrid bile] to get huge damage on deaths.

This skill is crap. Armor-sensitive cold-damage ftl. Putrid Bile is strictly better.

Quote:

[martyr] Highly useful when paired with [infuse conditions] in condition heavy areas. Other than that, there really is no point.

No. Given the recharge times, it's not stronger than Foul Feast by anywhere near enough to justify using the elite slot for it. In fact, for areas where conditions get reapplied quickly, perhaps Foul Feast is strictly better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

[AotL]

No. First, the AI has no idea how to time it well. Second, it's inferior to JB as an extra-minion-creation skill. The recharge is too long to enable you to actually replace your customary animate spell; which means the minions AotL creates from corpses would otherwise get created with your customary animate spell anyway. So, all AotL is really adding is the one corpse-free minion once each recharge. JB also gives one corpse-free minion each recharge, but the recharge is much faster.

You forgot:

[soul bind] which is decent, but not great, healer hate even at low curses.

and

[empathic removal] which is decent removal with no attribute requirement.

All-in-all, you'd be best off sticking with JB, or Empathic Removal, or possibly Soul Bind.

Pleikki · May 09, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

[Aura of the lich] <- This is teh elite.
[Death nova] <- With this
[Animate shambling horror] <- and this
[blood of the master] <- oh and this
[Infuse condition] <- thats hawt.
[Foul Feast] <- you cant forgot this
[Aegis] <- or this
[Protective spirit] <- ah this.

Xenomortis · May 09, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

For a human MM:
[Order of Undeath] - this comes out on top by a long way.

For a hero MM:
[Jagged Bones] - well, this is really one of the only options on a bomber build, but a MB doesn't actually need an elite and can take anything suitable.

Other stuff:

[Empathic Removal] - This is a useful support skill that can easily replace Jagged Bones on a hero bar and can find it's way onto a human bar if that person is running a more support based build.

[Aura of the Lich] - on a human bar... well you can do better. The mass minion raising is nice I suppose, but the +1 to Death isn't anything to get excited about. I've never put it on a hero bar, but can't imagine it'd work out well.

Really, there's not much else worth mentioning unless I say why it's a poor choice.

kyzia diera · May 09, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

flesh golem is best MM elite imo

upier · May 09, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

[build=OANEUsl30JVFgGgHYGlAa0YHs7A]
This build is currently the closest to what I want from a hero MM.
If anything should be dumped - BotM of course. The problem is that the guy is running healing and death - which basically means I've already used up all the suitable skills.

Improvavel · May 09, 2009, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

[build=OANEUsl30JVFgGgHYGlAa0YHs7A]
This build is currently the closest to what I want from a hero MM.
If anything should be dumped - BotM of course. The problem is that the guy is running healing and death - which basically means I've already used up all the suitable skills.

I imagine that build is for h/h and to save hero cap, because if you have access to 6 heroes there is no need to get [[rip enchantment] and [[enfeebling blood] on the MM. A curse necro brings enough advantages to the table to merit a spot on most teams

Xenomortis · May 09, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyzia diera

flesh golem is best MM elite imo

Well, you're opinion is wrong.
Wasting your elite slot for a single minion is well... wasteful.

upier · May 09, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I imagine that build is for h/h and to save hero cap, because if you have access to 6 heroes there is no need to get [[rip enchantment] and [[enfeebling blood] on the MM. A curse necro brings enough advantages to the table to merit a spot on most teams

Like I said, considering what healing and death offer - Rip/Enfeebling surpass it.
So even if I run a curser - Rip is definitely there, whereas Enfeebling ends up staying most of the time also.

(Slightly off:
Death is such a poor line and so I really do not understand guys that play a bomber on a ritu. That forces you to invest into Spawning and Death and then you are REALLY stuck with a ton of shitty skills.)

deluxe · May 09, 2009, 04:24 PM // 16:24

I really don't get all this love for [blood of the master].
The fun start's when you blow up your minions instead of healing them.
Not ever have I not had enough corpses to make new minions.
My mm's run this: [build;OANDUshtSyBTBoBJgLCGNTf6EA]

upier · May 09, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

I really don't get all this love for [blood of the master].
The fun start's when you blow up your minions instead of healing them.
Not ever have I not had enough corpses to make new minions.

The problem is going from one battle into another. BotM prevents losing your army mid-way.
That's my whole reason why it's there.

Improvavel · May 09, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Like I said, considering what healing and death offer - Rip/Enfeebling surpass it.
So even if I run a curser - Rip is definitely there, whereas Enfeebling ends up staying most of the time also.

I would rather run protection stuff over dwsorrow (or protection at 9 with healing at 5 for dwayna) or even splinter. Not a big fan of dwsorrow.

zwei2stein · May 09, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I would rather run protection stuff over dwsorrow (or protection at 9 with healing at 5 for dwayna) or even splinter. Not a big fan of dwsorrow.

dsorrow is incredibly cheap torrent of fairly strong party heals. Definitelly not to be underestimated.

Carinae · May 09, 2009, 08:43 PM // 20:43

I'm not a fan of Dwayna's Sorrow either. If you are running a build with a lot of minion turnover, then it's decent. That means it shines best on a MB with either JB or AotL. But a ~35hp party-heal when a minion dies is quite weak in most situations.

The build posted by deluxe is decent for DS and better than Upiers build, but nowhere close to OoU+EBSoH. Obviously you don't want BotM on a build dedicated to minion turnover, but on a build dedicated to amplifying Fiend damage, BotM is indispensable.

Rip/EB need to go on a curser or on a hero with a /N secondary. Personally, I think Rip is pretty marginal as well. Might as well run Rend or Gaze. I run one of those on my Orders necro.

upier · May 09, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I would rather run protection stuff over dwsorrow (or protection at 9 with healing at 5 for dwayna) or even splinter. Not a big fan of dwsorrow.

While Splinter is godly - it means not having access to any kind of hex removal. It also means investing into Channeling which is equally bad when it comes to elites as Death. Probably worse.
Aegis/PS are very good though. But considering I mostly run my paragon these days - a cheap party wide heal does so much more when you are running around with 80+% damage reduction than PS or Aegis ever could.

And if I am running a caster - then the necros are running Discord.

Improvavel · May 11, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

While Splinter is godly - it means not having access to any kind of hex removal. It also means investing into Channeling which is equally bad when it comes to elites as Death. Probably worse.
Aegis/PS are very good though. But considering I mostly run my paragon these days - a cheap party wide heal does so much more when you are running around with 80+% damage reduction than PS or Aegis ever could.

And if I am running a caster - then the necros are running Discord.

I must say I generally don't use henchmen (thank goodness) which gives a much greater degree of flexibility in the mid line configuration.

I must say, however, I don't notice the effect of dwayna's sorrow - again I don't use henchmen, so might be different when using sub-par henchmen builds - in the instances I use it.

For it to trigger minions need to die. Death will generally occur in 3 ways - enemy damage; natural degen; going over minion cap.

If they are dying of natural degen, chances are your party isn't taking (threatening) damage .

If the MM is going over cap to replace old minions chances are that your party isn't taking (threatening) damage.

If they are dying because of enemy damage, unless its huge aoe, then its damage your party isn't taking, so the heals are most likely not needed.

So what's left are some occasions where huge degen, by hexes and/or conditions, happen and bar topping, which is meh to say the least.

Some pwk pots, life spirits, tntf, some motigon dude, even [[empathic removal], [[fall back] , etc, will probably do.

But, yeah, I agree that options from the death and the channeling line are pretty limited (channeling has like splinter, warmongers and maybe ancestors rage and [[weapon of fury]). You could also use earth, that again, has a limited number of useful skills.

Guess what I'm saying is that if I need something to round up the party, dwayna's sorrow is either one of the first things to go or will end be played at like 5 healing prayers.

Moloch Vein · May 11, 2009, 01:38 AM // 01:38

^ They can die from Taste of Death as well, which isn't so uncommon if you bring an MB with that skill.

Chthon · May 11, 2009, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

I really don't get all this love for [blood of the master].

It's not a great idea on a MB. In battle, you want the minions dying faster, so healing is unwise. Between battles, you need something to keep the minions standing, and BotM does that. JB can also fill that gap and adds something to the battle. Even without JB, I'd probably suggest Feast for the Dead before BotM on a MB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I would rather run protection stuff over dwsorrow (or protection at 9 with healing at 5 for dwayna) or even splinter. Not a big fan of dwsorrow.

1. It's sad that Sab's legacy is going to involve so many people mindlessly slapping low spec prot on minion bombers without asking themselves why they're doing it. Prot has no synergy whatsoever with the rest of the MB bar; and there's only enough free attributes to do it half-assed. The only reason to put prot on a MB is the lack of bar space imposed by the hero limit. What's more, these days ER Infuse/Prot is so powerful that it usually deserves a hero slot wherever the hench healers are inadequate, and that frees the MB of prot duties even on a 3-hero team.

2. DSorrow basically serves the same role as the old LoD. It's unfocused healing that cleans up the "nicks and scratches" that make it past your damage mitigation without making a serious enough run on someone's hp to justify a spot heal. Anti-pressure. Yes, it's true that the timing is usually not when the party is in grave danger, but that's not the point. The point is to heal the "nicks and scratches" so that they don't pile up into pressure that the monk has to deal with. It does that job quite well. In fact, for that task, compared to any other option, it usually outheals anything except Heal Party on a ER build. Additionally, it's an extra enchant for ER and DKiss.